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Obama's Stimulus Package ...

Started by AstroMart, 04/07/2018 10:51PM

Poll Results:


0 Total Votes
Posted 02/20/2009 05:32PM #20
Donald Allen said:


Funny, we have stimulus not going to work, which means economy will not do well, which mean corporate profits will not be that good, yet prior poll has Dow at 9000 by end of year. That does not make sense.

DA

I hope it works but my sense is that it will not work.

The other day I was listening to NPR or some such thing and the "expert" was explaining that the way people generally made money investing in stocks was not through earnings but because someone else was willing to pay more for the stock...

This has been my observation/concern for a long while, the stock market is fundamentally unsound because it based on speculation rather than actual worth. People buy stocks because they think someone else will pay more for it in the future not because they think the company will make a profit.

My second observation is that when the market is on the way up, a few make a killing, those without money to invest or who are not willing to invest it, just sit and watch as people make millions on speculation.

But when the speculation bubble bursts and it's time for the fall, everyone is in on the ride down...

Where it will end, I don't know... inflation, deflation, stagflation, where the bottom is...

When I see California with a huge deficit, cutting jobs and services, well, I don't see how the Stimulus Package is enough to do much. The fire is going out.

Jon



Posted 02/20/2009 06:47PM #21
Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"Banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Chris
Posted 02/21/2009 12:39AM #22
David Berman said:

Flush the toilet in 2 years and start over. The "leadership" are poster boys & girls for the 'Peter Principle'.

The problems we are facing today are not the result of the current administration nor the current congress, they are problems created by those who went before them, they are problems created by a public who were comfortable living on credit cards rather sound personal finances.

The issue here is whether the previous occupants and our own irresponsible actions have so damaged the fabric of the economy that a simple repair is not possible.

Jon
Posted 02/21/2009 02:48AM #23
Chris Provost said:

Thomas Jefferson said in 1802:

"Banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies. If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around the banks will deprive the people of all property until their children wake-up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered."

Chris

Roger the validity of the quote ....but it doesn't apply to our circumstances - in naming the guilty party!!

The government controls the issue of currency (through the quasi-pseudo independent FED) ...and right now, the government is in the process of monetizing the debt by printing lots more money. This will drive inflation up, and will cause savings to loose value.

The government also is raising the debt by borrowing even more money (yes - Bush was wrong for doing, but now Obama is doing it even worse, more rapidly!! Yet the Obamabots claim that Bush was bad for doing it, but Obama needs to do it to get us out of the problem Bush created. Can you say "DUMB"!!!!)

Ultimately, the results will be the same, but it will be done by the government that a majority elected ... and the majority apparently wants socialism, wealth re-distribution (also more correctly called wealth destruction!) Someone said that we get the government that we deserve. I want to know what we did to deserve a Alinsky-spouting Communist-in-Chief, two corrupt/crooked politicians for leaders of the House and Senate, and new legislation to spend almost $1 Trillion, that is forced through the House and Senate without a formal/final copy of the text. After the Friday vote, the House and Senate aides continued to write/edit/modify the bill over the weekend . . . so obviously, no one in Congress read through the bill before voting.

As to the promises of transparency and openness ...that was a sop to dumb rube voters, and zerObama never intended to keep those promises. His Presidency is already failed, as he pushes for the failed policies of FDR.
Posted 02/21/2009 02:54PM #24
Well said James! Too bad too many believe in handouts instead of working for it themselves. Rewards aren't given, rewards are EARNED. Those that feel "entitled" want to steal it from you (through legislation) instead of earn it themselves. Then those (3 you mentioned and more) will take the glory of (I gave it to you) by stealing it from you and handing it to "them", the "entitled". This so-called "stimulus handout plan" is stealing from those who haven't even been born yet. Nice job Nancy, Barry, Joe, Harry, and....
Posted 02/21/2009 03:31PM #25
I'm sorry, but that really bears repeating! It's funny how the truth, and history, is always forgotten. If people would actually read history (not just the past 8 years, but the past 80 years), they would begin to understand what is going on. Sure, every administration make mistakes. But some are very costly and have implications that carry on for 20 or so years. Reagan did indeed bring this country out of a recession. But it didn't happen during his time in office. It took a few years to come to fruition. Clinton rode the wave and during his time in office managed to stop the wave and reverse it. Bush then took office on a trough in the wave where the worst was yet to come, since what Clinton did would take a few years to come to bear. Then when Bush tried to start the wave again, the Dems started a wave of filibustering. We are just now starting to feel the consequences of that. We're not only in a trough, but the water is also receding. The bottom is coming up fast and the wild, unfettered spending of the socialists is going to cause a crash. Enjoy that whopping $8 a week you have yet to see.. If you even see it.

Michael Vineyard said:

Several points

1. The cost of the Iraq war is less than the $800 Billion porker bill that ensures the growth of government. The cost of the Iraq war has also been spread out over 6 years, vs. 1 large lump sum - which will probably set a new "baseline" for continued spending, therefore the Congressional Budget Office projects that the $800 Billion porker bill will cost almost $4 Trillion over the next 10 years, if we include interest costs and continue the top 20 "programs" on a yearly basis.

2. The cost of the Iraq war is a sore point to those who wish Saddam was still in power, able to terrorize his own people while getting billions of dollars through the corrupt UN "Food for Oil" program ...and while slipping millions of dollars to terrorists. They claim that the people of Iraq would be better off under the rule of Saddam ...

3. The Iraq war is a convenient straw man for liberals to beat upon - if you ignore all the concerns that they had about Saddam, his WMD programs (which he did have), and how he would be a big risk if nothing was done. ONLY when we didn't find ACTIVE WMD programs, did the liberals then claim that they were deceived and that we should never have gone to war. These sort of people would have caused us to loose to Germany and Japan.

4. The typical liberal rant is that Bush spent billions unnecessarily - and then they rant about all the programs that he underfunded ....and they complain about his Education program (No Child Left Behind), Senior Citizen Drug program, and they complain that the programs were too small. Then, after whining about the big budget busting spending, their solution is to ..... spend even more money!!

5. And finally - they complain about how Bush, with his deregulation, caused the financial meltdown ... all while trying to keep the public from finding out how Bush requested - over 20 times, more regulations on Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, and the liberals filibustered any stiffening of regulations. They don't want the public to know that the major "de-regulation" was a bi-partisan plan that was signed by Bill Clinton in 1998. They don't want the public to know how much the Community Reinvestment Act (pushed by Carter, expanded by Clinton) was what sowed the seeds of the sub-prime loans, giving NINJA loans to applicants who should never have been given a mortgage, etc .....and all this did was to create an artificial housing price bubble that popped in early 2008 ....and that Bush and Republicans were warning about the problem in 2003, 2004, 2005, etc., but the Democrats stopped any action from happening.

So .... will the $800 Billion porker program work .... that depends on what is expected.
Recall that in 1979 - 1980 - when we had double digit inflation and unemployment - far worse that the problems we are presently having (in spite of the lies that Obama, the Democrats claim) ... Ronald Reagan became President, and cut taxes, cut regulations on private enterprise, encouraged the private sector to grow ...and about 2 1/2 years later, the economy started a long-term boom. Pres. Reagan was successful with a program of smaller government, less spending, etc.

Then recall that in 1933, FDR became president. He continued (and increased) the big government policies of Hoover - more taxes, more government spending, bigger programs (sort of an Obama-lite) ...and 8 years later, he too could look back with success. Their goal wasn't to fix the economy, because unemployment was still high, taxes were high, the depression continued on ....but he created a welfare mentality amongst the populace that would blindly vote Democrat ...and keep the Democrats in power for many many years.

So - Obama's program MIGHT be as successful as FDR ...in generating a nation of sheep who figure big government is the solution - even if it means becoming another socialist Europe, with low job growth, high unemployment and high taxes.
But I don't think the stimulus package will help our nation.
Posted 02/21/2009 04:00PM | Edited 02/21/2009 04:02PM #26
Indeed. As my reward for many years of work and slowly saving to build up a 401K, saving to make a down payment on a house I could afford, and doing my best to look after my family, I am rewarded by seeing half of my investments evaporate in a year while my house is dropping in value each month by more than a mortgage payment. Shucks, wouldn't it make me feel a little better to know anyone I thought was less better prepared than me REALLY got hammered and lost everything so they ended up living in their car? Sure, that will put me deep under water on my house, and probably people will literally be starving in this country, but at least I would have the satisfaction of punishing people for their pursuit of happiness.

-Rich

Jeffrey Counsil said:

Well said James! Too bad too many believe in handouts instead of working for it themselves. Rewards aren't given, rewards are EARNED. Those that feel "entitled" want to steal it from you (through legislation) instead of earn it themselves. Then those (3 you mentioned and more) will take the glory of (I gave it to you) by stealing it from you and handing it to "them", the "entitled". This so-called "stimulus handout plan" is stealing from those who haven't even been born yet. Nice job Nancy, Barry, Joe, Harry, and....
Posted 02/21/2009 04:02PM #27
You are right. A simple "patch" (stimulus bill) will not work. Companies MUST fail when their time has come. Let GM fail, it will HELP this country. Why? you ask.. Well, if there are no more GM vehicles, then someone will need to fill the gap. Ford, Chrysler, Toyota, Hyundai, etc. WILL be needing to HIRE PEOPLE to be able to keep up with the demand! They will need to EXPAND their business in order to fulfill the desires of people wanting a new car. That will create NEW jobs. This is the REAL "redistribution of wealth" we all need. Let those whom have no job get a NEW job. Let those "displaced" workers find a job somewhere else (at the "new" plants). Business will boom for the "other" auto makers. Let a Bank fail! The other banks will prosper, OR some will START A NEW BANK. When a light bulb burns out, you don't try to prop it up with e new filament, you REPLACE the bulb. If GM fails, you REPLACE GM! If Ford fails, you REPLACE Ford! If Bank of America fails, you REPLACE BoA! Failure is a result of burning out. You spent all it's life. Start OVER with a new life! It happens every year in Nature! Spring brings new life, while Fall (the failure) is the end result. Winter is "the storm" and the cycle starts all over again.
All things must pass. Let them!!

Jon Isaacs said:

David Berman said:

Flush the toilet in 2 years and start over. The "leadership" are poster boys & girls for the 'Peter Principle'.

The problems we are facing today are not the result of the current administration nor the current congress, they are problems created by those who went before them, they are problems created by a public who were comfortable living on credit cards rather sound personal finances.

The issue here is whether the previous occupants and our own irresponsible actions have so damaged the fabric of the economy that a simple repair is not possible.

Jon
Posted 02/21/2009 04:08PM #28
I do. Though I know it isn't read until it comes with a nice hefty campaign contribution.

-Rich

Jeffrey Counsil said:

Richard, I DO e-mail and call my "representatives" quite often! Why don't you? After all, that's what they are there for..

Richard Wright said:

Then what? We need to move this to a positive statement of what IS rather than negative proof. We've got the "I'm not X, so you should imagine my views are what you would approve of" representation as it is. There has to be some indication the people going to Washington are there to represent the people, not push some arbitrary agenda. Do you feel like you are being represented? Why not? I know I sure as heck never called up my congressional delegation to tell them I wanted a capital gains tax cut. I never called them up to tell them I wanted bankruptcy law modified to favor credit card companies and landlords, so people let their houses get foreclosed on rather than skip credit card payments and stores would liquidate instead of trying to reorganize. I never called them up to say I wanted Credit Default Swaps to be unregulated. I tend to doubt you did, either. We had pharmaceutical companies writing the laws to govern themselves. In return, we got pills you take daily for the rest of your life to avoid restless legs instead of a cure for heart disease.

Someone is going to Washington. Who will it be, and what is it they are being sent there to do?

-Rich

Jeffrey Counsil said:

Specter is on the "gotta go" list.
And I agree, many more need to be "flushed" down the toilet where they belong. :S
Posted 02/21/2009 04:36PM | Edited 02/21/2009 04:42PM #29
That's just it, Chris, it doesn't matter if people are in variable interest loans or not. The problem is house values have imploded. In Phoenix, they are down over 40%. So people are in the predicament of having a $400,000 loan on a house now worth $240,000, and they've paid in $40,000 on the mortgage. There just isn't any point in worrying about the interest rate. Even if it were 0%, they can't sell for enough to pay back the mortgage. This is what happened back in the great depression. Then they had to change the law so all the bank could take was the house. That is why people are just mailing their keys to the bank, now. The stigma of defaulting on a loan is up against bankrupting your future to stay in the house. It is very easy to claim the problem is people buying things they couldn't afford, but that just isn't the case. The problem is anyone who bought a house in 2006 or 2007 is under water on their mortgage and sinking fast. One by one, they are concluding they can't throw that sum of money at a house which may not sell for that much possibly for decades.

The only cheap loans that would fix it would be ones adjusted for the decrease in value of the property. And that is the one thing the banks don't want to do, and are lobbying against because it will make them completely insolvent on paper. If the government does nothing, the banks will have to declare the value of their collateral at some point and be revealed to be insolvent, which literally would cause the US financial system to cease to exist. At that point we would be facing the realization the great depression wasn't a benchmark for as bad as things can get. So they are trying. I don't know if it will seem to do much of anything besides buy time. But time is useful, too.

As for the proposal to make new loans available at low rates. Having people buy houses which would go under water even before the loan was approved is one of the few things one could do to make this situation worse because it puts the banks in a bigger hole and the tax payers right along with them.

We are in bad shape. Yeah, a lot of people made mistakes to get us here. A lot of them have views I disagree with. But we are at the point now where we can decide to try to fix the blame or fix the problem. I choose to try to fix the problem. Yeah, a lot of people will have a lot to be angry about. I am one of them. But we don't even know how bad it is, yet. Look on www.zillow.com at your local housing values. Look at the slope on the devaluation. It is accelerating. I don't see how any government action can fix that. But maybe they can slow it down.

-Rich

Chris Provost said:

We are screwed no matter what side of the aisle you agree with. Spending is not the way to fix this problem though. If we are going to go even further into debt, why not give working, tax paying Americans large low interest loans? Talk about economic stimulus! If you own a home, have children, and have a REAL work history that meets some sort of minimum then you should qualify for some help. Can't pay your mortgage and you were not one of the idiots that took a variable rate loan...then let the the liberals buy your mortgage, and offer you a very, very low fixed rate. Can't feed your kids, or put them through college then let the left wingers pay for that too, and keep their grubby little paws out of medicine. The government doesn't work, for you or me just for themselves. I'm in a crunch now and I expect things to get much, much worse but I don't want the government "fixing" my problems. Investing in education and regulating corrupt banks will fix everything sooner than pouring a trillion dollars down the crapper.

Chris