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Barlow vs. high mag EPs

Started by ghacker, 07/06/2006 04:59AM
Posted 07/06/2006 04:59AM Opening Post
I'm sure there are many experienced observers who can shed light on this question.

Are there any advantages/disadvantages to using a barlow or powermate with a relatively low power eyepiece to achieve higher magnifications as opposed to using an appropriate eyepiece alone to get the same level of magnification?

The only issue I can think of is the additional glass which will light throughput, but I'm sure it's more complicated than that.

Anyone willing to elucidate?

Posted 07/06/2006 02:10PM #1
>>>Are there any advantages/disadvantages to using a barlow or powermate with a relatively low power eyepiece to achieve higher magnifications as opposed to using an appropriate eyepiece alone to get the same level of magnification?
----

One important issue is eye relief as Jim has pointed out. Short focal length Orthos and Plossls are short on the eye relief so while they provide sharp views, your eye is pressed against the glass...

Short focal length eyepieces with reasonable eye relief normally have a built-in barlow or barlow like elements...

In a fast scope, ie faster than F/5 or F/6, a barlow can be a big help. Most eyepieces show significant edge defects, normally astigamatism in a fast scope. A barlow helps with this, a F/5 scope with 2x barlow appears to be an F/10 as far as the eyepiece is concerned so edge correction is improved, often rather dramatically. Of course the scope is still F/5 so aberrations such as coma and false color do not change.

jon

Posted 07/06/2006 02:20PM #2
I agree with Jim and Jon. The increased eye relief and in my equipments case increased FOV makes the barlow and eyepiece a better option. I have a 2.5X and 3.5X barlow and seem to use them exclusively for high power viewing.

The only draw back I can think of is the extra weight or possibly the slight misalignment from a long tube. I still prefer it for visual observations.

Dave
Posted 07/06/2006 02:37PM | Edited 07/06/2006 02:38PM #3
As others have mentioned, the added eye relief of a longer focal length eyepiece is often appreciated. A barlow may actually push the eye relief out a bit farther. A Powermate will not change the eyepiece's eye relief.

There are alternatives to short focal length eyepieces with poor eye relief. The Pentax XLs and their newer XWs, and the TV Radians all feature 20mm of eye relief. Of course, they have a built in "barlow" at the bottom of the barrel - so I guess you are taking the same approach with these, although it is designed as an integral part of the eyepiece, which could be helpful.

Clear skies, Alan
Posted 07/06/2006 04:22PM #4
I think the answers so far are right on the money.
The eye relief on a long f/l EP may already be more than adequate, so increasing it might not be an advantage. But, it does save a bit of money to double the f/l of each EP over buying individual f/l EPs.
A good Barlow is pretty transparent, in that you don't notice it in the light path.
The Powermate indeed gives power without changing the eye relief. Not a plus with short f/l EPs but maybe with long f/l EPs. The Powermate is arguably better than a Barlow because of how if works.
This is explained easily with this quote from an article.

One asks about the advantages of the 2.5x Powermate over his "good
ole" 2.5x Tele Vue Barlow, particularly with his 19mm Panoptic and 9mm
Nagler.

There's no significant benefit with those particular eyepieces, except
some possible edge field illumination. There's a much bigger difference
with Plossls, especially longer focal length ones.

You can answer your friend's question regarding what makes a Powermate
different than a Barlow by telling him "it's how the rays exit the two."
The light rays exiting a Barlow are diverging, consequently hitting the
eyepiece lenses at higher than normal heights in their apertures. After
these rays trace through this new path in the eyepiece, they form the
exit pupil at higher than normal position. That is, IF all the rays make
it through the eyepiece at all! The Powermate functions like a Barlow,
but redirects the rays coming out of it, so to the eyepiece it appears as
if everything is "normal."


Then to a more complete explanation, this quote from Televue.

To understand the Powermate, we must first understand the Barlow lens. Barlows amplify the power of a telescope. They can be considered “focal reducers” for eyepieces, or “focal extenders” for objectives. Terence Dickenson, in his Barlow test report in Sky and Telescope, July 1997, says: “Technology has erased the old objections. A modern Barlow will not degrade your telescope’s optics. Anyone telling you otherwise is using outdated information. Moreover, the highly regarded Nagler eyepieces and their clones have built-in Barlows, ample evidence that the lens is not some detrimental intruder.” Thanks, Terence, for laying the myth of the degrading Barlow to rest.

A high quality Barlow must be properly designed and manufactured in order to avoid compromising a telescope’s color and spherical aberration corrections. The “invisibility” of Tele Vue’s 2-element Barlows has been noted in test reports in the astronomy magazines. However, by the nature of its negative power lens, a Barlow will do more than just increase magnification, regardless of the number of elements.


The diverging rays leaving the Barlow result in moving the exit pupil further out, thereby extending the eye relief. In short to medium focal length eyepieces the change is not noticeable. However, in the case of long focal length eyepieces, the increase can be significant and not without performance consequences.

Vignetting can occur due to the altered ray path, when the eyepiece’s lenses are not large enough in diameter to allow all the rays to make it through. Shorter Barlows, or ones with too much magnification, only exacerbate the problem because the ray path entering the eyepiece is steeper.

We had to go beyond the Barlow concept to achieve the goal of a compact, high power, fully corrected image amplifier. The Powermate™ consists of a negative doublet plus a positive “pupil-correcting” doublet. This 4-element system provides the magnifying function of a Barlow without its limitations by restoring the field rays back to their original direction, as if the Powermate™ were not there. The result is a pure magnification increase.

[SIZE="Large"][/SIZE][COLOR="Blue"][/COLOR] Floyd Blue grin
Amateur Imager
Posted 07/06/2006 08:23PM #5
If you buy a good quality barlow, there is no readily apparent affect to the image vs a high power ep. I have a variety of eps and have done direct compares between the high power and the low power + barlow yielding the same Fl as the high power. I have not yet been able to detect a difference. So even the light loss from the extra glass is insignificant enough as not to reduce dimmest stars in the field. FYI, I have a 10" dob, f/5, and use a Klee 2.8x barlow.

I do notice however the afov does alter on some eps under barlow. The TV Powermate and Siebert Telecentric barlow are supposed to eliminate this alteration to the basic characteristics of the ep.
Posted 07/06/2006 08:33PM #6
Buy a Siebert Telecentric or Tele Vue Powermate and find out for yourself. It's an obvious and self explanatory experience. Harry and Al figured it out for you already. What anybody else thinks doesn't change that one iota. It's HIGHLY doubtful you will regret the purchase one itty bitty bit. I love my Tele Vue Powermate and my Siebert Telecentric. The numbers and facts don't quite explain the performance, so quit looking for reasons and make the jump and hope your parachute opens..........it probably will, like it did for the rest of us.

Enjoy the view.

Phil
Posted 07/06/2006 09:23PM | Edited 07/07/2006 04:45AM #7
Thanks everyone for the info. so far. I do seem to remember reading that barlows do affect the eye relief. Does anyone know a formula to assess this impact or do only the manufacturers know for sure?

The reason I started thinking about this is that I have a 35mm Panoptic and plan on getting the 27mm as well (24mm and 19mm eye relief respectively). Right now I don't have any wide FOV mid-range eyepieces between a 21mm Stratus and an 8mm Hyperion. I do have an 8-24mm TV zoom that will help fill the gap temporarily until I can afford better. I've been thinking of getting a Televue Big Barlow instead of discrete EPs.It will in effect be two for the price of one.

Anyone with practice experience on this? Is the extended eye relief an issue where I would want to go with a Powermate?

I lean toward wide field, because I have an 10" XTi (1200mm, f/4.7)and, of course, it's easier to keep the subject in view. My goal is eventually to end up with UW (@80 degrees) EPs over a period of years.

BTW, both my wife and son have astigmatism issues which is why "the family" EPs have longer ER. Some of you may recall that I have a 7mm OU ortho and 7mm T1 for myself.

Last query. Can anyone recommend a good primer (as in beginner) book on optics so I can begin to understand how all the factors interrelate?

Thks. in advance
Posted 07/07/2006 02:35AM #8
Continuing this thread to the next logical question. Has anyone spend much time with either a quality barlow or powercore and Pentax XLs/XWs or the TV Radians. Is this too much glass or do you still get good images with this combination? The obvious reason to do this is cost. With a powercore or barlow you in theory could double the efl's of some very good eyepieces.
Posted 07/11/2006 02:46PM #9
I have found that the U.O. 2.8X Klee Barlow has fantastic light throughput. As an example: Using a 25mm. U.O. Ortho combined with The Klee yields 54X in my SV80. A 12.5mm U.O. Ortho yields 40X. To my eyes, the Image through the Klee appears brighter. I have no idea how this is possible. I had a 2.5X Powermate and when I got the Klee I sold the Powermate as the Klee was a wee bit better in every category.