Posts Made By: Steve Hollenbach

John Agnew said:

Here is something that has puzzled me for awhile. If you're not a fundamentalist Christian, you apparently don't really believe that Adam and Eve were actual persons, and the Fall, the apple, etc., were an allegorical tale. Yet, isn't the whole point of Jesus as "Saviour" to rescue us from that Original Sin? If you aren't a fundamentalist, what is the concept of Original Sin about, and when did it take place?

Well, I'm no "Fundie" but the version I learned (Catholic)was Adam & Eve ate the forbidden fruit and so fell from grace. This was the first sin, also known as original sin. However "Original Sin" is also the tendency to sin in general. Here a strange one. It's evident in babies crying out of greed for food or comfort... beleive it or not.

OK, If Jesus saved us from that, "Thanks! Job well done, and good riddence". However, Why all the fuss over sacrifice? Any good Rabbi can teach moral guidelines to avoid sin.

The tendency to improve one's position or obtain food is so subjective that an objective right and wrong do not apply to sin. The Baby crying is an example.

Is it so greedy to cry for food or to be changed? It would be a sin not to feed or change a baby. Crying is the method of communication we have at that age. So, no, that's no sin. It even looks silly now to see it in writing. Most people don't consider the pursuit of a job to earn money by hard work and put food on the table to be a sin.

Here's the subjective part; what kind of job, how much food, where did the money come from. The list goes on.

I don't happen to beleive in "Original Sin" and therefore have no need to be saved from it. There are plenty of not so original sins in the world that have far more adverse affects on mankind than the theoretical original kind.

Thanks,
Steve
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William Paolini said:

Today I decided to visit an atheist website. So I went to www.atheists.org to see what they talk about there. There are about 34 hyperlinks in the central frame of the from page of various current topics. To my surprise, a clear majority of those link were related in some way to religious activities.

So my question is, why do atheists spend so much time concerned with what non-atheist groups are doing? When I go to a Buddhist site or a Catholic site the vast majority of their front pages are dealing with topics related to what they are doing and not what non-Buddhist or non-Catholic groups are doing. I was expecting to find the band of atheists discussing and promoting their views, instead was more concerned with counterpoint to organizations or peoples of opposing viewpoints.

Always sends up a red flag for me when I see organizations doing mostly couterpointing of opposing views as it usually exhibits a level of extremism operating freely within the group. Is it because atheists have no views they hold in common except anti-views? This is a sincere question as I'm just not understanding why a group of people would organize as a lifestyle against something. Seems more productive to stress a lifestyle that is unique, has its own redeming attributes, something to be proud about and attract others instead of being so negative and anti this or that.

Disclaimer - I've not reviewed a bunch of sites out there and am going off of behaviors I see in this forum space and some major websites. I did note that some major websites had less anti-theist stuff (although still a lot), like www.atheistalliance.org, but just seemed to me that if the organization had the word atheist in its title it tended to have lots of religion counterpoint as its focus. If the organization did not highlight atheist in its title, like the Freethought Association of Canada or the European Humanist Federation, then these were more of what I expected, little religion counterpoint and expressing more of their own unique attributes instead. Anyway, found it curious.

Good Question....

OK, I have two totaly unsupported ideas... but they make sense.

In my experience most athiests or agnostics were raised in one religion or another, so this could be a return to double check what's been going on without them.

Or, those who generate web-site traffic are the more politically active athiests. Not being a cohesive group, we only see these few.

Those we don't see may actually be the majority. They could be living happily next door without any desire to exchange views on political or religious matters.

Just food for thought.
Steve
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Without getting into God's opinions or desires. All prayers are answered. The answer is usually "No". OK, I'm not going to keep on begging for the right lotto numbers.

Back to miracles. Although I believe in God (yes in a Spinozian way) I do not believ in the miracles as explained in the Bible. The fish and loaves is the easiest example. In that era people had to bring their lunch. McDonnalds hadn't been built yet. No, TV, OK, lets go out the west gate and see what Jesus is raving about today.

Common entertainment and bringing a lunch with you were as common as dirt in the year zero.

Even in the American Civil War we buried people alive with some regularity. So Jesus wakes up in a tomb, not believing it himself right away is convinced he came back from the dead. The only recolections he would have in his daze would have been the recent torture, so thinking he descended into hell for a short time is plausable. After a month on his feet and poor medical care, he died of infection or simple blood loss. Floating away on a cloud, nope I just don't buy it.

However, there are reports of horrible crippled children regaining a normal body in an instant. There are also stories from places like Lourds where people who had lost limbs regained them. Also instantly.

These stories are sketchy at best, as all documentation is held by the Catholic Church. Their bias is obvious. It could only have occured at a known site under conditions "we" find acceptible. Sounds more like a filter at work for PR in support of their doctrine. However it would be interesting to see some proof of these stories.

For the most part, I'd have to say no.
Steve
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Newton had to appear to love his Bible to be a member of the Royal Society.
S

They shout loadly when something "offends" them. The strange thing is most of what they shout about would not be done by them (in theory).

In my experience the typical Christian Fundie just wants to run other peoples' lives, watch boring TV, have lots of fat kids and hunt out of season.

If they really want to be isolated, Just move to Giuana or Waco. Oh... sorry...
Steve
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That was Hi-Larry-ous.
Steve
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William Paolini said:

Took a road trip to Chicago (12 hrs) last week. On the return drive my son was asked do I think that if a human attained power over creation, basically omnipotent, how I thought they would be. So the question was if I thought they would become like God is portrayed as loving and caring and their interest was in helping humans, or not? He was reading a graphic novel called the Watchmen and in it a person attains omnipotence basically and can control all time/matter/space.

So how would you have answered (this was after a discussion on scientology of all things)?

I think the average human lacks the maturity to handle omnicience with any skill. However, there's a big difference between being God and being God-like.

If you attained such power, would God tap you on the shoulder and say; "Hi! Careful what you think, it could wipe out Burma."?

In my experience in life, and in reading this forum, people are pretty much clueless as to what "infinite" really is.
So if you wish up something that sounds like fun would you take the time necessary to think about the repercussions?

Without a proportionate increase in patience, love, understanding, and so on, such power would simply corrupt or disrupt to a greater extent than some great earthly power.

Steve
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Most Laser manufacturers put warning lables on their products, however, the smaller the product, the smaller the odds of a warning lable.

As for our crowd, thier are a variety of Laser ponters available, and of course, no matter how low powered it may be, it is a single frequency tight beam so don't point it into anyone's eyes.

In the construction industry OSHA requires us to post Warning "Laser in Use" signs no where any Laser is in use.

Steve
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First the good news, they're on hold in answer to a request by the FBI and DOD.

In my opinion the burning of books has historically been carried out by the morrons of the world.

I more modern times and a real concern for our government is the way terrorism functions. It's mostly a propoganda machine with violent methods. They would latch onto and exploit anything that might bring more of Islam into their twisted interpretation.

Burning the Koran would only serve to fuel thier fire, and serve no rational purpose here.

Steve
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Jim Brown said:

Doug Matulis said:

[COLOR="Blue"]Imagine there's no Heaven Jesus would not imagine this
It's easy if you try
No hell below us Jesus would not imagine this
Above us only sky Jesus would not imagine this
Imagine all the people
Living for today Jesus would not imagine this, this is clearly unbiblical. Earth, Creation is only temporary and not all there is.

Imagine there's no countries An Isrealite would never imagine this
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for Jesus would not imagine this, what greater love that one lay down is life for another
And no religion too Jesus would not imagine this
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace Jesus would not imagine this, he knows our hearts all too well.

You may say that I'm a dreamer Jesus would definitely say this
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one Jesus would say, not the tower of Babel again!

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world Jesus would you are describing my kingdom, foolish man, you will never attain this on your own.

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one [/COLOR] Jesus would say John is a communist.

John Lennon

You could be right on "possessions, organized religion and nationalism", but there is a lot more to Lennon's song than these. In a perfect world perhaps his utopia could be a reality, but a perfect world never has nor never will existing until Christ returns and reigns. The reality of his song is that it is very dangerous and very antithetical to the American way of life, he was basically a new age one world government proponent.

Yikes Doug, do you speak for Jesus now, kind of like his PR man, or do you think you are Jesus? I didn't know Jesus was into politics by the way. Do you suppose he'd be into NASCAR if he were living as a man today?

The key part of John Lennon's song is profoundly "Christian". As a matter of fact I doubt that you could find any pop lyrics or even Gospel music lyrics that so beautifully sum up the most important part of Christ's teaching as these:


[COLOR="Blue"]Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world

You may say that I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one [/COLOR]

John Lennon




Funny how rare it is to find someone who actually states the most important part of Christianity. Ironic that it would be John Lennon, who certanly was not a fan of organized religion.

[COLOR="Maroon"]"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ."[/COLOR]

Mohandas Gandhi
[/quote]
Well said Jim,
Doug and many others like him often make statements of what Jesus would have said or what God wants.

First, the statements Jesus made which might indicate what he thought were not written, they were verbal. Those were remembered many years later in letters and the various writings and re-tellings which were then written about long after the fact.

So, with some blur added we do have some accounts of what his opinions might have been, but not much more. Certainly not enough to make an authoritative claim as to what he would say today about the lyrics of a song.

"Imagine" was song I was not particullarly impressed with, but still it's essentially about achieving peace. Setting asside our differences is one way to look at it. The exact method or ideology is of little consequence to an artist trying to sell a song.

Calling it "Communist" is just a political ploy which might be better served on that forum.

Perhaps a clearer understanding of why the ideology of communism is attractive to so many people might be achieved if we examine it in detail. However that's more in philosophy that Religion. It might bear mention that what those people are sold and what we consider adverse are not the same thing. The ideology of communism was never really achieved by the cruel regimes who used it as their avenue to greater power.

When in its purly ideological form (for small groups like a commune) it seems to work. That is.. when all members can devote themselves to a selfless existence. Unfortunately most cannot, and arguements errupt over who cleans the house, washes the dishes and so on. Sort of like living with big family I grew up in.

The world has and is finding communism as an ideology doesn't work in a society where selfish people can take some advantage. In that respect those traits will most likely always be with us.

However, living life as selflessly as possible might be right in line with what Jesus taught.

I imagine it would be difficult.

Steve
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