Posts Made By: Joe Lentz

I think ignorance comes first, since that breeds fear, and fear breeds hate. Which brings me back to this quote from earlier in the thread:

"According to a recent Gallup Poll taken among 1,236 adults... more than one-half believe in the devil (or 55%, with 8% not sure and 37% who don't believe the evil one exists). One in ten claim to have talked to the devil. Some 49% believe that people are at times possessed by the devil, and 22% are not sure, leaving 35% of the population who do not believe in demonic possession."

If this poll is representative, then it (to the extent that it shows an acceptance of the supernatural) indicates a disturbing abundance of ignorance imo. Doesn't the key to fighting (or promoting) ignorance lie largely in how children are raised by their parents and society?

But what can be done to combat ignorance once fear and hate have already taken root? There are always some who will reject any education that interferes with a view of the world they have already grown comfortable with. This loathing or unwillingness to change ones ways in the face of reason might be considered another contributor to "evil". We could simply call it "pigheadedness" ;-)

So... is it possible for someone who has only been raised in an environment of love, respect, and enlightenment to discover a desire and ability within his or herself to commit inhumane acts?

There isn't much I can add to what has been touched on by others in this thread. As has been suggested, amateur astronomy may not be for everyone. Each of us has different levels of ability to appreciate what comes into our lives. In this loud and often insensible present day culture, the more subtle influences often require more from us than we are used to giving. If I could, I would like to briefly quote from a man who devoted the better part of his life to astronomy during the 20th century, and whose work is much appreciated by amateur astronomers:

"Considered as a collector of rare and precious things, the amateur astronomer has a great advantage over amateurs in all other fields, who must usually content themselves with second and third-rate specimens. For example, only a few of the world's mineralogists could hope to own such a specimen as the Hope diamond, and I have yet to meet the amateur fossil collector who displays a complete tyrannnosaurus skeleton in his cabinet. In contrast, the amateur astronomer has access at all times to the original objects of his study; the masterworks of the heavens belong to him as much as to the great observatories of the world. And there is no privilege like that of being allowed to stand in the presence of the original."

- Robert Burnham, Jr.

(from the introduction to the Celestial Handbook)

Tom, I've heard some talk recently of Clark joining the Dean team. Such an alliance would be interesting I think.

>>>> So, I hardly see it as Clark riding in on his white-horse to save the Democratic party. He's just expanded the field from 9 to 10 for now. <<<<

It pains me to agree with you James ;-) but I also see Clark as number 10 more than anything else. I wish I could view his entry as an end to the democratic "drought", but so far I am unmoved. Surely there must be somebody else out there who is either rich enough, connected enough, or crazy enough to run for prez... and who has his stuff together of course. That last should be easy given the competition. ;-)

Michael, I've engaged this particular debate in the past. You are right; when the participants are dug in it can become ugly. I have no fear of debating issues I feel strongly about, but there are more appropriate venues for this one than Astromart. Suffice to say that those who maintain an opposing view on THIS issue are dead wrong. Is that a challenge? No, just an opinion.. ;-)

*bump*

C'mon you guys, don't run away from this post. I know it's a tough question, but it's an important one. Why you think the voting record on environmental issues is so lopsided?

(I'll be in northern MI and out of computer range for the next couple days. Maybe there will be some interesting reading when I get back?)

Interesting that no one has really addressed the question. Probably because there is no satisfactory answer. The fact remains; the overwhelming percentage of votes for ANY pro-environmental legislation comes from dems, not republicans. Since such issues affect us all, then why should partisanship even enter in? It baffles me why the right continues to find excuses to ignore environmental issues, and also why their constituency doesn't demand a change. BTW, as I mentioned in the beginning, this voting pattern is a matter of legislative record, and is not merely the opinion of some group or other.

>>>> Oh, and btw. It was I who had Jon on the ropes ;-) <<<<

In your dreams Jimmy boy, in your dreams.

Of course organized religion allows large groups of like minded people to practice and reinforce their beliefs. Comfort, support, and strength is found in numbers. But those who maintain faith ouside of organized religion have likely come to terms with their spiritual life in a way that makes more sense to them on a personal level than organized religion could. This latter situation is more appropriate in my case, and is one I arrived at after being involved with a few different organized religions during my youth and early 20s.

This leads me to a question: When it comes to a belief in god, and the hope it inspires, perhaps the belief and hope is enough to accomplish the objectives of religion, whether the actual god in question exists or not? What I mean is this: The good that can be realized in organized religion OR individual belief seems less dependant on any proof, but on faith and the desire to believe. And to the extent that a positive result comes from that, what is the importance of proving whether or not it comes from within or without? If the result is good, isn't that enough?

This stuff probably all gets deconstructed way too much. I generally trust more in my gut feelings, experiences, and results than I do in doctrine and dogma (and yes, I am aware that those things don't always have to be mutually exclusive). If I can be a good person in life, appreciate the experience, and treat those around me with love and respect, then why should it matter which version of god (if any) is at the root of it? I feel lucky to be here, to be part of such a fascinating world, to have the ability to be curious, ask questions and learn, but I no longer feel the need to have an explanation for everything. I can coexist with mystery just fine.

Debbie, I don't know where you are, but here in mid-Michigan the ragweed season has made things particularly difficult over the past 2 or 3 weeks. As soon as we get a couple hard frosts though, it should help a lot.