If suicide is a sickness and I did it would I still go to heaven??
mv
mv
suicide
Started by gibson57guy, 12/22/2004 04:00AM
Posted 12/22/2004 04:00AM
Opening Post
Posted 12/22/2004 05:01AM
| Edited 12/22/2004 05:04AM
#1
Mark,
It would be my hope that your question comes from a detached interest in the intellectual issue, rather than a more personal one. If not, please talk to somebody (I'm serious).
This is a very important issue and one that I have (unfortunately)had opportunity to deal with not on a merely academic basis, but a very real one, as I have been involved as a pastor several times, having conducted funeral services on five different occasions, in addition to other folks under my care who have had another family member or friend who has struggled with this.
(This is going to be a long post. The following is is one of two experiences that have been some of the most difficult, yet profound of my experiences in the area of pastoral care - the other one being my ministry to a person on federal death row from soon after his arrest, through the trial and sentencing, and then 8 years of incarceration and then attendance at his execution. But that's another story.) I will never forget the most poignant one in this area in which a 15 year old young man in a family in my congregation I knew and loved very well found him at home having hanged himself. Their first call was to 911 and the next one was to me. They had difficulty reaching me right away and by the time I got word, they had just gotten to the hospital. I rushed into the emergency room, saw the dad in the hall who confirmed that he had hung himself and was dead. I left him with his coworkers for a moment and stepped into the emergency room exam room, where the boy was laying there on the table, dead, his face blue with a rope burn on his neck, and his mother and 19 year old sister were standing there with him crying and talking to him. And the moment I walked into the room and put my arm around the mom, she turned to me and said, "Do you think (Name)'s in heaven?" I was stunned. I remember being rather at a loss for words and mumbling something about how it wasn't for me to say and that God was a loving God, etc. I'm sure she didn't so much remember what I said (thankfully), but rather that I was there with her.
But as I have continued to reflect on this issue and dealt with it subsequently, I believe it was fundamentally a good answer, namely, that I didn't know and that it wasn't for me to say. Now I don't mean by that to say that it doesn't matter what a person does or that the condition of his/her spiritual state has no bearing on one's eternal destiny. I don't think that all suicide situations are identical, or that none of them have moral or eternal consequences. On the other hand, I do believe that a person's mental state certainly can mitigate a person's moral responsibility for an act. The focus of my comment "it's not for me to say" doesn't mean I don't have any position on what sort of behavior is morally culpable or that I don't believe that a person's choices or behavior can and does result in eternal consequences (that are not all the same). What I mean by that is it is not for me to say what the specific eternal destiny is for any specific individual because I don't know what has gone on in their heart or spirit. God is the only one who knows that. So I would not presume to put myself in that position. (BTW, in any funeral, I don't focus on trying to put this particular individual in heaven, and I certainly don't consign them to hell. I focus on God's love and grace, and give opportunity to honor the memory of the person's life and give witness to the person's faith, as I'm aware of it.) Sorry for the length of the post, but this is an issue that is searingly real to me.
Respectfully,
Jason
It would be my hope that your question comes from a detached interest in the intellectual issue, rather than a more personal one. If not, please talk to somebody (I'm serious).
This is a very important issue and one that I have (unfortunately)had opportunity to deal with not on a merely academic basis, but a very real one, as I have been involved as a pastor several times, having conducted funeral services on five different occasions, in addition to other folks under my care who have had another family member or friend who has struggled with this.
(This is going to be a long post. The following is is one of two experiences that have been some of the most difficult, yet profound of my experiences in the area of pastoral care - the other one being my ministry to a person on federal death row from soon after his arrest, through the trial and sentencing, and then 8 years of incarceration and then attendance at his execution. But that's another story.) I will never forget the most poignant one in this area in which a 15 year old young man in a family in my congregation I knew and loved very well found him at home having hanged himself. Their first call was to 911 and the next one was to me. They had difficulty reaching me right away and by the time I got word, they had just gotten to the hospital. I rushed into the emergency room, saw the dad in the hall who confirmed that he had hung himself and was dead. I left him with his coworkers for a moment and stepped into the emergency room exam room, where the boy was laying there on the table, dead, his face blue with a rope burn on his neck, and his mother and 19 year old sister were standing there with him crying and talking to him. And the moment I walked into the room and put my arm around the mom, she turned to me and said, "Do you think (Name)'s in heaven?" I was stunned. I remember being rather at a loss for words and mumbling something about how it wasn't for me to say and that God was a loving God, etc. I'm sure she didn't so much remember what I said (thankfully), but rather that I was there with her.
But as I have continued to reflect on this issue and dealt with it subsequently, I believe it was fundamentally a good answer, namely, that I didn't know and that it wasn't for me to say. Now I don't mean by that to say that it doesn't matter what a person does or that the condition of his/her spiritual state has no bearing on one's eternal destiny. I don't think that all suicide situations are identical, or that none of them have moral or eternal consequences. On the other hand, I do believe that a person's mental state certainly can mitigate a person's moral responsibility for an act. The focus of my comment "it's not for me to say" doesn't mean I don't have any position on what sort of behavior is morally culpable or that I don't believe that a person's choices or behavior can and does result in eternal consequences (that are not all the same). What I mean by that is it is not for me to say what the specific eternal destiny is for any specific individual because I don't know what has gone on in their heart or spirit. God is the only one who knows that. So I would not presume to put myself in that position. (BTW, in any funeral, I don't focus on trying to put this particular individual in heaven, and I certainly don't consign them to hell. I focus on God's love and grace, and give opportunity to honor the memory of the person's life and give witness to the person's faith, as I'm aware of it.) Sorry for the length of the post, but this is an issue that is searingly real to me.
Respectfully,
Jason
Posted 12/24/2004 02:32PM
#3
Mark,
This brings up a problem that I have always thought rather intriguing. Suicide is an example of what Catholics call "Mortal" sin--that which would send you straight to hell if unrepented. In order to commit a mortal sin, one must have knowledge that a deed is a mortal sin, and one must have free will--a chance to either do or not do it.
The problem I have always had with that analysis is that I do not believe a person with a free will could do a deed that they knew was a mortal sin. There are people who could kill, for instance, out of sheer meanness--but if they are that mean, can it be said they did it with a free will?
So--to suicide--can one in his right mind (which is necessary if you are considered to have free will) kill himself? No, I do not think so. Something so overwhelming must be compelling the act--and therefore, the person has no free will.
In short-No, I don't think the person is barred from heaven. They would go to the same place as the mentally incompetent and the innocent.
Alex
By the way--first concern with anybody wanting to talk about suicide is to make sure they are talking philosophically, and not planning anything.
I would not have spent any time discussing this if you had not answered already that you are just discussing philosophically. I would have, as Jason did in his first response, suggested you call somebody close at hand.
This brings up a problem that I have always thought rather intriguing. Suicide is an example of what Catholics call "Mortal" sin--that which would send you straight to hell if unrepented. In order to commit a mortal sin, one must have knowledge that a deed is a mortal sin, and one must have free will--a chance to either do or not do it.
The problem I have always had with that analysis is that I do not believe a person with a free will could do a deed that they knew was a mortal sin. There are people who could kill, for instance, out of sheer meanness--but if they are that mean, can it be said they did it with a free will?
So--to suicide--can one in his right mind (which is necessary if you are considered to have free will) kill himself? No, I do not think so. Something so overwhelming must be compelling the act--and therefore, the person has no free will.
In short-No, I don't think the person is barred from heaven. They would go to the same place as the mentally incompetent and the innocent.
Alex
By the way--first concern with anybody wanting to talk about suicide is to make sure they are talking philosophically, and not planning anything.
I would not have spent any time discussing this if you had not answered already that you are just discussing philosophically. I would have, as Jason did in his first response, suggested you call somebody close at hand.
Posted 12/28/2004 05:27PM
#4
Mark, In the Christian religion God forgives all your sins when you accept and receive Jesus' sacrifice. Once a person puts their faith and trust in God's grace given through Jesus on the cross and believes that a sin they commit can't be forgiven, they don't fully understand forgiveness. This includes suicide. If a Christian was walking down the street and is thinking about having sex with someone other that his wife and is killed will he still go to heaven? The answer is yes. Now if a person thinks "Hey I've got Jesus on my side and I can commit any crime I want because I'm forgiven" does not fully understand the price of salvation paid by Jesus. That would be blaspheme against the Holy Spirit.
This is the same as the 3rd commandment, Do not take the Lord's name in vain. That does not mean cursing. It is the same as when a wife takes the last name of her husband by marriage and then by her actions destroys that good name. A true Christian understands the price paid to redeem them and tries their best to live a life to please God. That does not mean we are perfect. We will make mistakes. And some will unfortunately end their own lives. So to sum it all up, A person who has accepted forgiveness from God through Jesus and commits suicide will go to Heaven. A person who rejects Jesus will not under any circumstance. Vince
This is the same as the 3rd commandment, Do not take the Lord's name in vain. That does not mean cursing. It is the same as when a wife takes the last name of her husband by marriage and then by her actions destroys that good name. A true Christian understands the price paid to redeem them and tries their best to live a life to please God. That does not mean we are perfect. We will make mistakes. And some will unfortunately end their own lives. So to sum it all up, A person who has accepted forgiveness from God through Jesus and commits suicide will go to Heaven. A person who rejects Jesus will not under any circumstance. Vince
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