OK Lets Try It

Let's see if can we discuss creation without either side retreating into a corner. Let's discuss creation. Let's define our discussion as the "creation" of the universe and particularly life coming into being, whether blind luck or God.

I will kick things off by offering a broad overview of my position. Remember, we are all tainted by our human emotions and experience, but let's try to offer some reasoning with our conclusions. Let's try to avoid just picking the other guy's theories to pieces and instead let's try to ask questions and come to a better understanding of where each is coming from.

My views:

I discount Darwin’s warm pond theory because the odds seem overwhelmingly against it happening even once, let alone twice in the universe.

I think there are quantum factors that choose the right supposition of states, thereby cutting the odds against life of pure chance.

I find the physics of the Universe to be incredibly simplistic and beautiful in design and operation. I think life is special too because life can observe and seek to understand the universe. Life can gain knowledge that could change and alter the future of the Universe.

To that end I think life is predisposed to occur. I believe that some process is in place, whether natural or not, that cuts the odds of life emerging. That combined with the incredible design of the micro world, in which everything is made of basic constituent parts, which in turn are made out of nothing smacks of some higher design or order, perhaps way higher than anyone's view of God.

I think there is purpose to it all, but maybe not a purpose for me or even the human race. The purpose may be in the sum total of the entire Universe(s), not just Earth. I don't really care what the purpose might be as I'm sure I can't understand it. I just want explore how it works and maybe get a small peek at how it was done.

That is a VERY BROAD brush stroke of my view.

Daryl

The best postulate I've read is "Quantum Evolution" by John Joe McFadden. The title actually should read Quantum Creation. McFadden has a lot of credentials in both biology and physics. Given that the most basic replicator (something even far simpler than a bacteria) requires a combination of molecules that if drawn from Darwin’s warm pond, would require 10 to the 16 odds (10000000000000000).

These odds are so great that if happened once in the Universe that would be a miracle, let alone twice.

He proposes that all 10 to the 16 combinations exists in superpositions. If this is true then there might be a way to favor the state that would create a replicator, causing that state to collapse into reality. There must me some mechanism that elevates life to much better than 10 to the 16 odds.

The anthropic principal is challenged because even IF we were just lucky and were the only ones to hit the 10 to the 16 odds in this universe, how did it happen so quickly on Earth? Life sprang up on earth almost immediately (by geological standards). I find the fact that biological fossils appear almost as soon as the Earth was stable enough to support life as being one of the prime factors for supporting a theory that would make life LIKELY to appear in the right conditions. The warm pond scenario, while possible, seems unlikely that it would have hit so quickly in Earth's history.

Daryl

>>>>That combined with the incredible design of the micro world, in which everything is made of basic constituent parts, which in turn are made out of nothing smacks of some higher design or order<<<<

This is also where I have trouble with the theory of evolution. There are basic structures on a cell level that have many parts working together with no explanation of how or when they came together. There is no "more basic" structure they could have evolved from. It might be just a matter of time until evolution unlocks these secrets. If anyone knows any good books on this topic let me know.

Sincerely,

Troll

My views:

I believe that time, the universe, and causality make a certain orderly sense. Effects follow certain causes. In short, I do not believe that the Universe, or life developing in it, requires constant miracles to keep it running on an even keel. The Universe is not so badly designed.

At quantum levels it would appear that sheer probability and random chance can dictate the occurrence of certain events or the existence of certain things and that this world of statistical probabilities forms the bedrock of existence.

It would seem to me that randomness can get balls rolling. Forces, natural laws, time flow, cause-and-effect, keep the balls rolling.

If space, or multi-dimensional hyperspaces, is/are infinite in extent outside our universe (small 'u') -- that is, there is an infinitely expansive all-encompassing Universe (capital 'U') then any thing, any Universe that is possible, i.e. non-zero probability, must exist 'somewhere' or 'somewhen' in spacetime.

In short, if spacetime is infinite, then our existence, and that of life in general, or a Universe conducive to its formation, is statistically forced.